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ignition advancer

This is a discussion on ignition advancer within the ZX-9R forums, part of the Kawasaki Motorcycles category; I have a 99 zx-9r. considering ignition advancer. Muzzy has adjustable-up to +6 degrees, factory pro has fixed ,+4 or +6 degree. Anyone have dyno ...


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Old 08-20-2006, 07:54 PM   #1
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From: Baltimore
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ignition advancer

I have a 99 zx-9r. considering ignition advancer. Muzzy has adjustable-up to +6 degrees, factory pro has fixed ,+4 or +6 degree. Anyone have dyno runs before/after of either or just seat of pants(especially for smoothness) Have heard that +4 is best but haven't heard if any added benefit going to +6 on this engine.
bill
   
 
Old 08-21-2006, 05:57 AM   #2
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I have a advancer on mine it seemed to help out with removing the off idle bogging. If you are goingto do an ignition advance make sure you do a jet kit and an exhaust or it will not work properly.
   
 
Old 08-21-2006, 09:52 AM   #3
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From: Baltimore
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not sure why you would need jet kit and exhaust also? From my car expericence, just advancing timing gives you more horsepower (to a point) but go too far and pre-detonation can kill your engine. giving it more fuel can help prevent this, but it is not necessary unless you really push the timing.
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 06:17 AM   #4
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From: South Carolina
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I have a 99 ZX9R with a full Muzzy exhaust. I installed Factory Pro's carb kit w/titanium needles and the 6 dergree timing advancer in my bike and it runs great. Everything else is stock and I run 6.70s in the 1/8th.
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 07:42 AM   #5
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When you install an advancer what you are doing is taking away some of your bottom end and moving it to gain some mid to high end performance. When you take away some of the bottom end you may or may not develop a small lag when coming off the line. By doing th jet kit it helps to correct the fuel supply throughout the entire rpm range. And by doing the exhaust you remove a restrictive stock system. It not a question of why but a question of why not do these things you will find out that your bike will perform better by doing these things.
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 08:39 AM   #6
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From: Baltimore
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quote:

"It not a question of why but a question of why not do these things you will find out that your bike will perform better by doing these things."

I used to think that way too. When I bought my first street bike, a 91 600 Katana, I put on a Vance & Hines Pro-Supersport pipe, invividual K&N air filters, Dynojet stage 3 jet kit and a Vance & Hines ignition advancer all within several months. Now I am 39 years old and I don't think I want to deal with the sound of aftermarket pipe or the jetting woes I always had with the katana. Although I was told it was the fastest katana around at the time, it always ran poorly down low and would even stall at times. But then again, my 99 ZX-9R doesn't carburate so smoothly down low from the factory. But this bike is relatively comfy (compared to the bikes now made) and I can take trips on it. Went home to parents last weekend and drove over 200 miles nonstop each way. Try that on a R1 or 900RR? Your wrists would be aching like crazy (especially if you are 6'2" like me!) Now if I add a loud exhaust, it might become irritating on long trips. Yeh, nice in the twisties on short ride, but make your head rattle for the long term. Guess I am getting old!
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 09:54 AM   #7
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Quote:
quote:

"It not a question of why but a question of why not do these things you will find out that your bike will perform better by doing these things."

I used to think that way too. When I bought my first street bike, a 91 600 Katana, I put on a Vance & Hines Pro-Supersport pipe, invividual K&N air filters, Dynojet stage 3 jet kit and a Vance & Hines ignition advancer all within several months. Now I am 39 years old and I don't think I want to deal with the sound of aftermarket pipe or the jetting woes I always had with the katana. Although I was told it was the fastest katana around at the time, it always ran poorly down low and would even stall at times. But then again, my 99 ZX-9R doesn't carburate so smoothly down low from the factory. But this bike is relatively comfy (compared to the bikes now made) and I can take trips on it. Went home to parents last weekend and drove over 200 miles nonstop each way. Try that on a R1 or 900RR? Your wrists would be aching like crazy (especially if you are 6'2" like me!) Now if I add a loud exhaust, it might become irritating on long trips. Yeh, nice in the twisties on short ride, but make your head rattle for the long term. Guess I am getting old!
I can see your problem with not wanting to deal with the problems of modifing your bike. However your problem with doing that stuff to your first bike is that you put a full on race setup on a streetbike. Plus the katana 600 is not a bike that was designed for all out performance. I ride the a 1999 ZX-9R purchased with basically stock setup found it lacking the performance I desired. So over this past winter performandce upgrades were installed. Bike currently runs with a Dynojet stage 1 jet kit, Two Brothers exhaust, a Factory pro Ignition Advancer, K&N airfilter, and down one tooth on the front sprocket. With all work done myself. As fas as sound from the exhaust it is only maybe a few decibles louder than stock. And the jet kit is set to Dynojets specs and all lag is gone from the stock setup. I can ride the bike all day with no problems and I don't have a splitting headache after a day of riding. And as far as the age thing goes I am in my thirties as well and still get a rush from twisting the throttle from a dead stand still and reaching 170+within a matter of seconds. So it might just be that you are getting to old.
So once again I post the question.

It is not a question of why but a question of why not do these things.
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 11:55 AM   #8
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Quote:
When you install an advancer what you are doing is taking away some of your bottom end and moving it to gain some mid to high end performance.
Huh? Installing an ignition advancer isn't degreeing cams.. All it does is change the reference point location for the ignition. Adding more timing can help most motors but can also promote detonation too. By advancing or retarding the timing you also cause the motor to go lean or rich. Spend more money on your jetting to get good power instead of the advancers. There's more power to be had by doing that. So if you installed the advancer, did you see how much the fuel loads changed? Most people have jacked up jetting to start with so putting 4 degrees of timing into the motor leaned it down enough where it did help with HP. If you're already on the ragged edge with fueling, the advancer will only hurt your performance. Just my $.02 ........
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 11:57 AM   #9
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If you get deep into it, you'll find that you'll have 4 different jetting combinations for the different seasons. Fuel blends, temperatures, and humidity effects it all........
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 12:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Quote:
When you install an advancer what you are doing is taking away some of your bottom end and moving it to gain some mid to high end performance.
Huh? Installing an ignition advancer isn't degreeing cams.. All it does is change the reference point location for the ignition. Adding more timing can help most motors but can also promote detonation too. By advancing or retarding the timing you also cause the motor to go lean or rich. Spend more money on your jetting to get good power instead of the advancers. There's more power to be had by doing that. So if you installed the advancer, did you see how much the fuel loads changed? Most people have jacked up jetting to start with so putting 4 degrees of timing into the motor leaned it down enough where it did help with HP. If you're already on the ragged edge with fueling, the advancer will only hurt your performance. Just my $.02 ........
I agree that installing an advancer is not degreeing cams. However I have used advanced timing in various forms of racing motorcycle and automotive. And in both cases some low end performance was lost and replaced with a mid-top end performance increase.
For example if you were to take 2 identical vehicles and were to race them side by side. one vehicle set to stock settings and the others ignition advanced to +6 you would find that the stock vehicle would have a slight advantage off the line but will fall short in the top end compared to the other vehicle.
This practice has been used since the earliest days of automotive drag racing and has proven by far the cheapest way to gain more top end speed using a stock ignition system.
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 01:43 PM   #11
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Though all it does is add 2-6 degrees of timing on top of what the CDI will already provide. Yes, more timing up to a limit will increase performance but it will also cause the motor to run leaner and more prone to detonation(which will hurt performance). If you have too much advance at a lower RPM, it will have a loss of power and probably surge too. The top end performance gains after the installation is only relative to the octane used and the fuel loads that the carbs are already giving....
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 04:51 PM   #12
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From: Toronto, Canada
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You guys are all wrong. Added timing is torque, NOT HP. A vehicle with added timing should benefit down low. For shorter races, MORE TIMING is good, but the longer the race, more HP is needed as the Torque decreases with RPM, and therefore a motor will be setup with LESS timing.
We all ride our bikes around the streets, so the added timing gives us more torque. Torque is what makes you accelerate.
More timing is also gonna create more heat as the spark is happening sooner before TDC, therefore making the combusted gas build more pressure in the cylinder longer, making heat.

Tighter tracks will require more timing in the engine, because you want the bike to accelerate harder out of the corners. Some race teams retard the timing in an effort to prevent tire spinning outta the corners!!!

I hope I have given some good examples for you guys.

TIMING = TORQUE
TORQUE = ACCELERATION and TIME
HP = SPEED
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 04:53 PM   #13
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From: Toronto, Canada
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and btw, on our bikes, the ignition advancer is linear ( I think thats the word!) meaning if it's a 4 deg advance, it adds a constant 4 degs to the whole timing curve.
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 05:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
You guys are all wrong. Added timing is torque, NOT HP.
You are absolutely correct. I just phrased it as performance instead of torque.
Quote:
and btw, on our bikes, the ignition advancer is linear ( I think thats the word!) meaning if it's a 4 deg advance, it adds a constant 4 degs to the whole timing curve.
And that's why I said it adds 2-6 degrres on top of what the CDI already provides...
   
 
Old 08-22-2006, 06:08 PM   #15
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From: Toronto, Canada
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sunshine, sorry, I read your post vaguely. The main point of my post is to correct zx9racer!
   
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