I have an '06 14 and a '03 12 I'll get on one and then ride the other.
Back and forth over and over... and the 14 out handles the 12 hands down.

Ever drive a pickup without power steering? That's what the 12 feels like
compared to the 14. Same with brakes. On the 14 I one finger the front
brakes... just awesome.

So I decided it was time to try to figure out WHY the 14 was so much better,
and I started with the specs...

Rake/trail...

rake on the 14 is 23 degrees... on the 12, 23.5 .5 degrees more rake.
I am assuming that the engineers were afraid everyone would be doing
200mph on the 12s, so they added more rake for high speed stability.

On top of that they added less trail on the 14...94mm on the 14... 98 on the 12!!!! (B model)
So when I'm in a turn on the 12, I have to practically bend the bars...
Last but not least, the 14 has a longer wheelbase than the 12.
About 3/4 of an inch. no big deal, but I assumed it would be longer!!!


So now I'm on a mission to make the 12 handle better... one way would
be to retrofit a 14 front end, because the triple trees are setup to
have a lot less trail... then to reduce the rake, I'd have to raise the tail
of the 12 trying to reduce the rake... I could also lower the front end.
But then it will feel stupid, riding with the ass in the air.


When I have the 14 on it's side in a turn, it's almost like it has power
steering... very light touch will make it corner harder or bring it back
up to center. I want that in my 12. That's why the 12 always felt
"heavy" when in fact they fucked up the geometry and went way over
board to make it high speed stable.

I wonder what a 12 would have been like if it had the 14 specs.

Next I'm going to review the 10r specs, wish I had one of those as well
to compare the other two.

Jere

i thought the 12 have shorter wheel base???
the most impressive thing about the 14 are the brakes...one finger braking :)

Nice work Jere, I would have never gone threw the hassle of trying to compare the two. I still have my 03 12r too, so it makes your post very interesting.

I got my info off kawasaki's website...

Someone thought my info was wrong...

Ha, I have a measuring tape!!! And both bikes.

My 12 measures 57.5 inches and my 14 is 58.25 both have had sprocket
changes, so that can change the wheelbase...but on my two, the 14 is indeed 3/4 in longer. Which insn't much.

The huge difference is in the rake and trail....more to come!!!:D

I rode both bikes today... back and forth again, down the same twistie
road... tried to hold both at 45mph and hold each bike right on the double
yellow.

The 12 required both hands on the bars with a pretty strong amount of
pressure on the bars...

The 14 went through the same turns with one hand, almost litttle to no
effort required to make the turn. In fact, I used my thumb and 1st finger
(is that called the index???) anyway, little to no effort required.

In other news...:p:p:p

I rode the 14 to Tombstone today.... and encountered an '08 Z06 at a gas
station. We chatted for awhile and I knew sooner or later he would want
to run... yehaww... love that stuff.

He had a 150 dry shot of NOS on board... sneeky bastid... hahahaha
He showed me and on our first run he turned it off...

We first tried a dead start... with traction contol on, he bogged, I left
him so bad I just shutdown and came back.

Then we tried, traction control off... that was fun... he smoked it up
pretty good a few times to get the feel for a launch, and we lined 'em up.
Again the 14 got 5-6 car lengths right off the bat and pulled away to about
170mph indicated before I shut down. We did this several times until he
finally realized that NOS or not, he wasn't going to beat the 14.

Then we did some 100mph roll ons... again the 14 was able to pull away
from the Z06. fun stuff. It was fun to hear him bang some lower gears
trying to find what worked best for him...

Then we decided to just do some side by side high speed runs... and that's
when it got a little hairy. As the road had some off camber dips, the Z06
naturally zigged or zagged a bit... Since the 14 only has two wheels in
line, the off camber wasn't enough to affect me at all. But it wasn't fun
to have a full size car come into my lane at 150+mph... so we canned that
idea after a few runs. We did a few where he was ahead of me and it
was neat to watch his suspension work over the road, but a bit spooky to
see it change lanes. He never took it over 160 as it seemed too unstable
on the section of road.

When we got all done we had a talk... I told him for $10k I had a machine
that could spank his $80k machine... He laughed, and said yes, but he
had A/C and AC/DC playing at the same time.

We both smiled and with a handshake went our own ways....

PS, He had to be 70 years old... nice to know old farts can still go fast.:p

maybe a models n b are different.

The plot thickens!!!!

I have now reviewed my service manual for B models...

rake 23.5 degrees

trail 98mm (3.86")

So the B model has the same rake as an A model, but the B has more trail
which makes it resist turning... so the A model SHOULD handle better than
a B...

I'm pissed that the first reference I read showed the B as having 28 degrees
of rake... SORRY FOR THE MIS_INFORMATION!!!

I'm going to edit the first post as it is wrong....

AS a recap, the 14 has 1/2 degree less rake and 4mm less trail than the B model.
Can that small of a difference make the bike handle that much better???
What else can be causing the difference... same tire size, same air pressure.

The 12 handles just fine with one hand on the bars

I'm not sure on the physical differences from the A and B model, but I've ridden both and I think the B model handles way better than the A model. As far as the 14 goes, I was also told the suspension is very soft causing it to handle worse than the 12. Jere, I'm gonna have to come ride your 14 in the desert twisties to get the real comparison.

Why you comparing a 14 to a bike that doesn't exist anymore except in old garages? lol

Ron, my 14 blows the 12 away in the twisties... from one kneedragger to
another, you're gonna LOVE the 14...:cool:

Sweetpea... man, for someone that didn't know how to adjust a chain a
year ago, you sure got cocky... hahahahahaaaa I'm gonna have to ride over
to Ohio and dust your ass so yer head will fit in that damn XXXXXL helmet!!!:D:D:D

FYI, the 12 LOOKS hotter than the 14... and is more of a hooligan bike to
ride, if I can make it handle as good as my 14 it would be my #1 ridden bike.
No doubt they figured out how to make the 14 better than the 12 in handling,
I just wanna retrofit my 12 to be as good....:cool:

I know that in time a 10r will become my hooligan bike, but I don't want to give up
on the 12 just yet...

I'm assuming you meant to say "pig" not big... learn how to spell boy...:p

The 14 replaced the 12...so of course there are some things that the 14 can do better but the 12 is still the best of the 2 in my book...I've also ridden a 14 and I actaully prefer my 12 over the 14...I have a B2 (2003) and I roll wit tha 200 rear which most of you dont agree wit so I what do I know......I 've been riding bikes of all kinds off and on road and I've come to understand that some things aren't for everybody and some people just can adjust better than others.....

Bring it! Come on up next year homie. We'll ride some NKY twisties and settle this once and for all. Then have some beers. :D

Wrong, it does NOT look better.

Jere you and Nick are giving me a HARD ON with all this smack talk.....

Lookin good Gunner... wish we lived closer....:cool:

What are your sag numbers on either bike? 10mm +/- of sag will make a difference.

Hard to measure as both bikes have lowering bones, one hole down each.

Thats ok. You can still check the front.

Also, I dont know much about lowering bones and will assume that they lower the rear ride height thus altering the original geometry affecting factory rake and trail specs.

Is this a fair assumption?

I have ridden both and the 14 does have better brakes and does have a lighter feel to it but if you muscle the 12 it has more sport bike characteristics when pushed.The 14 is much more comfy but to me the 12 gets the nod when you really pick up the pace in the twisties.I have yet to run across a 14 or a Busa that can hang at the gap or the Cherohala.Familiarity with the roads is huge in my favor but there is local 14's and Busa'a and as yet,no competition.

Yea BUT Brain ....... You're fookin NUT !! I mean that in a good way from one FOOKIN NUT to another...

Just don't post a pics of said "nuts" ok Gunner...

Gray, yes, bones/lowering links lower the rear end which adds rake to the
front end. better for high speed stablilty, worse for turning in quick.
I mostly ride flat, wide open roads... we run near top speed all the time, so
the added rake is good for me. But both bikes are lowered and yet the 14
outhandles the 12 something fierce...

Nice investigation. Have to agree on you with this one...have 2006 ZX12 and 2007 ZX14

Jere, the 14 is a girl's bike. I see karme or piglet riding one son.

Hey! Where are the smilies.

Investigative threads like this are cool!

Also compare handlebar width and rims' weights. Oh, and tires' profiles/rim width.

No steering damper on either bike?

What about doing a timed burn-run on your favorite section of road? See which one is fastest point-to-point. :prison-smilie: :wink:

I guess u missed my post of the Z06 smackdown....

Z06, 505hp, with a 150 dry shot of NOS.... 14 gunned it down.

Girl's bike... yeah, ok...

Nine, neither bike has a steering dampner, no headshake... don't need them.
Both bikes have the same size tires. Same air pressure. 14 handles like it
has power steering and it has NARROWER bars, (which should steer harder)
I need more time this weekend to make some changes to get the 12 up to
speed as far as handling....

Ha ha! I found the smiles son.

Glad our nuclear engineer was able to find the smilies...

I feel much safer now...

Jere, one thing I did that definitely made a HUGE difference on my 12 was to replace the roller bearings in the neck with tapered needle style bearings. It was a cheap mod and since my bike was in pieces I decided it couldn't hurt. One thing I noticed when I took my front wheel off the forks and turned the handlebars from side to side was that my steering had a serious flat spot in the bearings. The steering was smooth until the forks were almost straight and you could feel it lock into that flat spot.

Same stuff we use to do in the Z1 days to. At least the stupid factory don't use Bronze bushings in the swingarm pivot anymore

Checked them.. smooth as a babies ass... it's a geometry thing...

The only thing I haven't done is to weigh the front vs the rear, with me on the bike.
I think the 14 has twice the weight on the front.

After taking a look at the pictures of your bikes side by side......The 12 has a higher center of gravity than the 14. I would think that is part of the "heavy" feeling you have with the 12.This added to the rake and trail numbers..... and you have the difference between the 12 and 14.


Maybe next Feb I can compare them back to back..... :) :)

Ever ride your bike(s) in Northern AZ? Up towards the Prescott/Bagdad area?

238

Put the 04 onwards 12 radial forks with the 14 wheels, discs and calipers. Either a 14 or a 12 master cylinder will do. Keep the original upper and lower trees. Lower the front 3/4 of an inch. Put on an Ohlins rear shock on the back with a 190 rear. Titanium exhaust plus 10kg more junk thrown away will bring your 12 back. You know this is the right thing to do. If you sell your old 12 stuff it should,nt cost too much to do the swap. 3 of my 12,s have these mods and I,ll be keeping them.........cos I luv em !!!!.

Forgot to mention I,ve got one of those 10R,s as well...........scare,s the crap out of me !!!!!.
I,m a born off the lights drag/top speed racer........always was.

ran - You wouldn't happen to have the brand/part number for that aftermarket bearing would ya?? That would be kinda nice to have next time the bike's down for any servicing...

This is quite an easy one & I'm surprised you haven't mentioned it.... the 12r has a higher CoG and sits quite a bit taller so it will feel very different.

... not convinced the 14 'out handles' it at all.

I've always found it odd when people compare handling on bikes with out getting the suspension set up buy a pro to fit that person's size and riding style. For example I'm a big guy (300lbs) so if I go with a stock shock setup on any bike I'm not really experiencing what that bike has to offer.

Even though I'm a newb at riding street bikes I like to lean deep in the curbs so at that point I need a set up that will address this. I have a guy here who knows his stuff get my suspension set up (for me) and my 12 handles so well it does not seem real.

Ok, to make a 12 turn good, drop front yokes 5mm, raise rear ride height with 6mm of spacers, whack a 190 on it and it will turn awesome..agreed they are a little lazy stock due to the speed thingo..

ohh yeah I also have had a full revalve from race tech and new front and rear springs...mine handles sik !

Try asking the ZX12 section. This is the 14 section. They would know over there.

I have never had the privilege to ride a 14, but I can tell you that when I had my 12 suspension tuned by Ken of Superbike Suspensions at a Sportbike Track Time track day, it was like riding an entirely new bike. ...by far best 75$ I spent on that bike.

While Ken determined that stronger front springs could improve it even further, I was extremely happy he was able to work with what Kawasaki built to begin with.

I sure recommend a professional suspension tune, though it may still not match a 14's cornering capability.

For me the big diference is 8 years of thecnology I have my ZX12R and I tell you guys one thing to fast to furios no road for crazy things alout fun but I no this new bike generation are GOODDDDDDD