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2003 using too much oil

This is a discussion on 2003 using too much oil within the ZX-12R forums, part of the Kawasaki Motorcycles category; Hi guys nice to see such an active forum for this bike. Im after some help with my 2003 B2H powerered kitcar here in the ...


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Old 03-04-2010, 12:02 PM   #1
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From: Telford, UK
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2003 using too much oil

Hi guys nice to see such an active forum for this bike. Im after some help with my 2003 B2H powerered kitcar here in the UK.

I bought the engine second hand without knowing the mileage to update the older CRB1000F engine that just wasnt up to it. The engine is much more powerful that the old one and brings a smile to my face when i am out in it. However the engine looses 1 litre of oil every 250 miles which means its worn somewhere, there are no leaks so its internal. No exhaust smoke when driving but if i rev it up when its hot its produces white\light grey smoke when the engine is reving back down.

A compression test shows the outer cylinders are holding 210 psi, but the inner two are only around the 150psi mark. Im not loosing any coolant so its not the head gasket. Im unsure what to do next, ive never opened an engine up but feel i have the skills to do if needed but i was trying to find out what is wrong or involved to fix it. If its rings related and not head realated is it a matter a new rings or do the bores generally need reworking (plating\honing) at the same time?

I have the crankcase breather on a filter and it seems dry so im looking for some tips where to go next.

PS this engine is VERY fast in my kitcar, i have no idea what its like in the original bike at under half the weight and you lot want to make them faster!

Cheers Andy
   
 
Old 03-04-2010, 01:38 PM   #2
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From: Denver, CO
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Lots of engine guys here (I'm not one of them!) Someone will help out I'm sure
Got any pics of the kit car??
   
 
Old 03-04-2010, 06:31 PM   #3
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From: texas
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im gonna guess valve seals and pehaps guides could cause the oiling when coming down
from the higher rpms.....
   
 
Old 03-04-2010, 07:26 PM   #4
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From: Irvine, Ca
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Its the rings.

Usually the valve guides will only smoke on startup when the engine is cold. If you are burning that much oil, you have a serious problem....
   
 
Old 03-05-2010, 02:38 AM   #5
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From: texas
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Well the rings on the inners are definetly
worn, and the smoke on start is a seal/ guide
symptom.
The bottom line is tear down......
It might be interesting to do a leak down
it would provide a little more information
it's more dynamic than static compression
   
 
Old 03-05-2010, 05:40 AM   #6
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From: Telford, UK
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cheers lads, i thought it was rings as its fine on startup.

But do the rings wear on these engines or is it more likely the bores? What im trying to do is prepare myself for stripdown and if i can get away with just bunging in 2 new sets of rings on the inners only or if i need to do all of them AND have the bores worked on.

On car engines you useally have to glaze bust the cylinders when fitting new rings but in the workshop manual it doesnt mention this at all, just fit new rings, new head gasket and thats it?

I know it can be different when i have it apart and see that the cylinders are worn but is the above possible or is it very unlikely and im looking at more

Cheers
   
 
Old 03-05-2010, 06:36 AM   #7
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From: West Of The Mississippi
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You have the textbook symptoms of bad valve seals/guides.

If the rings are shot, it will smoke under acceleration. Valve seals under deceleration.

When you decelerate your crankcase goes into a higher vacuum state and this tends to draw the oil into the combustion chambers through marginal seals/guides.

Now just because the seals are shot does not necessarily mean the valve seats or faces are gone. That means when the valve is closed, even if the seal is going, and you run a leak-down test if the seat is good you won't necessarily see the bleed down.

Basically what I am saying is your bleed down factor with a bad valve seal is on the wrong side of your leak down test. ;-). Rings yes, valve seals probably not.

Don't jump to conclusions. ;-)

As far as the cylinders go, these are Nikasil coated and cannot be honed/bored like a standard aluminum or steel cylinder - whole different ball game here...
   
 
Old 03-05-2010, 07:36 AM   #8
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From: Telford, UK
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cheers blitz. If it was valve seals would this not alter the compression test i have done? unless the valve is not closing correctly (checked valve clearances and all are fine).

I take it thats why i cant see oversize pistons and rings on any spares websites in the uk then as its not a normal thing to do on a bike engine (reboring/honing)?

Is it easy to strip this engine? is there no problems like removing the main head bolts and the like as i think i need to crack it open and have a look.

Anymore tips welcome.



Theres some rear footage at the end of the film, the very last part you can see a puff of smoke but all other times it looks clear to me. Also the first few minutes is with the older engine installed.
   
 
Old 03-05-2010, 08:34 AM   #9
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From: West Of The Mississippi
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Okay. Lets take this by point:

1) That thing is fucking cool. I want to see some pictures of it from the outside.
2) You ride it like a rented mule. That's western American for saying you run the piss out of it. I am not saying that is bad, but brother you work a girl hard and she is going to expect an expensive dinner occasionally.
3) Here is the deal on the oil. I want you to turn the volume up loud and listen very carefully at 6:18 on the footage. That motor from what I could tell wasn't blowing any smoke to speak of until that next 2 seconds of footage - and it puffed hard. I call that the puff of death.

There are lots of guys here in the states that run these motors in circle track. Circle track beats the hell out of the motor because they constantly have that sideways inertia going.

And do you know what the number one failure is on the motors under that circumstance, zx-11 OR zx-12? Oil cavitation/starvation.

When a motor cavitates it basically means the oil is being whipped into a frenzy (by the crank) and the pump sucks air (if only for a second or two). This is why the guys that race these motors over here put in modified oil pans with sump baffles. Under extreme conditions (which I would say yours is under judging by the video) this is a killer.

The first thing that happens is the lower mains get starved. This is bad. Very bad.

The second thing that happens is the upper gets starved. Not much better, but not quite as bad as the prior.

The third thing that happens is you get death smoke. That is when the oil pump recovers from starvation and starts working again. That is what happened @ 6:18.

Arguably (IMO) you do that once and the motor is compromised.

Have you done an oil analysis on the motor?

Last edited by Blitzkrieg; 03-05-2010 at 08:36 AM.
   
 
Old 03-05-2010, 02:18 PM   #10
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From: Telford, UK
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Hi mate, ive got an oil pressure guage fitted. i have also baffled and extended the sump. ive added more volume where the exhaust would run on a bike as this is clear on the car. It seems to be a common thing to do in the kit car area other than a swinging pickup or dry sump kit.

I agree the engine is worked hard, its geared higher in the car but as much more weight to pull so is really working itself but other kit owners dont use any oil where i do...lots of it.

it still uses alot of oil even if i drive it slow and under 7k rpm.

ps the smoke at 6:18 is front tyre lockup. was testing the brakes lol.
   
 
Old 03-05-2010, 02:43 PM   #11
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From: texas
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I Ride: 05 ZX12R

Posts: 1,791
I like the leak down for the simple fact that it will tell you where the leak actually is.
In other words, youll be able to hear if it is coming from an intake valve, exhaust valve
from the crack case breather.....or even bubbles in the radiator if the cooling system was compromized..ie head sealing
Blitz is spot on with the valve seal explanation.
Im not saying the leak down will aid you in the "outside the chamber" diagnosis.
It will however give you a dynamic look at the chamber seal integrity.
just something to consider.
Im sure a little research on leak down testing would be far more beneficial than
any explanation I could give

The car is by the way Very cool!!!
Like Blitz said show us some pics of the car from outside the cockpit

Last edited by Michaels12; 03-05-2010 at 02:49 PM.
   
 
Old 03-05-2010, 04:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
The car is by the way Very cool!!!
Like Blitz said show us some pics of the car from outside the cockpit
   
 
Old 03-06-2010, 08:44 AM   #13
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From: Telford, UK
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Old 03-06-2010, 08:51 AM   #14
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WIN!!! That's sweet!
   
 
Old 03-06-2010, 09:08 AM   #15
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From: texas
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YES! That's what I need!
Thanks for the pics mate!
   
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