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post #16 of 47 Old 09-19-2013, 02:05 AM Thread Starter
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Thankyou guys /Almost-less/Engineerrol ... You guys are artists imo !!
Its very much appreciated ,its just amazing technology...
Without people like you I would still be blind !!.

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post #17 of 47 Old 09-20-2013, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by almost_les View Post
the power commander system is always closed loop.
Yes, if you program it that way. The pc can be programmed to run 'lamda' or 'afr.'

Said another way: you can disable lambda or disable afr. You can use lambda in combination with afr.

Watt I mentioned was more the basics of 02 cutting in and cutting out under light/heavy loads. All this disabling is being tricked out by the timing so you can get away with it... Right?

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post #18 of 47 Old 09-20-2013, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by hubz14 View Post
Yes, if you program it that way. The pc can be programmed to run 'lamda' or 'afr.'

Said another way: you can disable lambda or disable afr. You can use lambda in combination with afr.

Watt I mentioned was more the basics of 02 cutting in and cutting out under light/heavy loads. All this disabling is being tricked out by the timing so you can get away with it... Right?
lambda and afr are linked. if you have one, you have the other. its just a conversion factor to go from one to the other. when it comes down to it, all o2 sensors measure lambda. then they run the lambda value through a conversion function, it spits out an afr value. two units of measure to represent the same value. like miles versus meters. lambda is technically more correct, but this is 'merica so we stick with afr because it sounds tougher.

i'm not sure what you mean by the o2 disabling being tricked out by the timing. the o2 sensor is always running and always sniffing. whether or not any fuel adjustments are made are decided by what you tell the system to do.

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post #19 of 47 Old 09-20-2013, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by almost_les View Post
lambda and afr are linked. if you have one, you have the other.
We run open loop. When installing the pig is when you can manipulate things.


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its just a conversion factor to go from one to the other. when it comes down to it, all o2 sensors measure lambda.
That's WATT I was saying. Every 02 is preset to send a value under a volt. You are stuck with the math always correcting to lambda.

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then they run the lambda value through a conversion function, it spits out an afr value.
Again, the pc is using your hot rod map, converting to lambda for best economy when not on the pipe, i.e., heavy load.

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two units of measure to represent the same value. like miles versus meters.
More like, a-N and J-D, btw is our cutoffs for each fuel to pressure values in open loop.

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lambda is technically more correct, but this is 'merica so we stick with afr because it sounds tougher.
Dis is merica so we stick with lamda being the 1ATMO, the 1 amt, 14.7, 760mmHg, or atmosphere is one number. Then there are a shitload of other AFR's that do not mix with the 1ATMO, i.e., Lambda.

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i'm not sure what you mean by the o2 disabling being tricked out by the timing.
02 goes disable because it is used for idle and low rpm use like not waiting for the heater to get warm via heat transfer, but now has a heater core to send data faster on cold/rich/start up.

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the o2 sensor is always running and always sniffing. whether or not any fuel adjustments are made are decided by what you tell the system to do.
Technically true. But like I said, if you were always in lambda, you'd never get around the bus.


When I shut the key off, the garage door goes down, that 15+ AFR is my idle preset in [last] memory [sniffed]. No pig needed. I think you might want to watch an 02 in action? Rich WOT becomes 13 AFR. Upon lift that high an rpm, you can see more vacuum pull being shown at 12 AFR.

So like I said, you need to prove to me you map a 14.6 cell reading in every fuel table, I'll show you a math calc out of stoic/lambda/1ATMO/1 atm/760mmHg/atmosphere, we create a stronger vacuum upon the intake air pressure sensor is X and Y is how big is that throttle being opened?

Make sense yet to the vacuum and pressure opening? Eliminate the vac, we now use rpm as X and TPS as Y. If we go belly up with every last sensor, watt happens next? We run the 1ATMO number for all calc is called "LIMP" in open loop speak.

Make sense this time around? You start to argue withub... Bee Pee PAIR'd

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post #20 of 47 Old 09-20-2013, 01:30 PM
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didn't knkow this was an arguement, but since this is the internet, i guess somebody will always be able to find one whether or not one is going on.

moving on,

if you are full throttle and at 0.86 lambda, you are going to fly past that bus. just because you can use lambda to measure something doesn't mean you are locked into one possibility. Lambda value of 1 is stoich, less than 1 is rich, greater than 1 is lean.

and then there is a gaping flaw in your logic: 14.6 afr has nothing to do with air pressure. nothing to do with vacuum. I can lift at high rpm and have a 12:1 afr, 13:1 afr, or 17: afr, it all depends on how much air is entering the engine in relation to the amount of fuel I have set to be injected.

afr is air-to-fuel ratio. at a stoichiometric blend, there will be about 14.6 units of air (by mass) per 1 unit of fuel (also by mass). doesn't matter the air pressure. an engine running at sea level at 14.6 afr will produce the same amount of power per unit of fuel burned if you move it to pikes peak where you have about 60% of the oxygen density. it will produce less power due to less oxygen available, therefore less fuel being burned, but you would still have a stoich mix of 14.6:1 afr. if you added fuel and lowered the afr to a lesser number to match the atmospheric pressure value, you would be running quite rich.

hopefully that helps.

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post #21 of 47 Old 09-20-2013, 04:57 PM
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On board with les, in fact I wouldn't be surprised to see a small spike in AFR on a high RPM throttle lift.

Your sea level Pikes Peak scenario is bang on, in fact I may use that analogy in future discussions
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post #22 of 47 Old 09-20-2013, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by almost_les View Post
didn't knkow this was an arguement, but since this is the internet, i guess somebody will always be able to find one whether or not one is going on.

moving on,

if you are full throttle and at 0.86 lambda, you are going to fly past that bus. just because you can use lambda to measure something doesn't mean you are locked into one possibility. Lambda value of 1 is stoich, less than 1 is rich, greater than 1 is lean.

and then there is a gaping flaw in your logic: 14.6 afr has nothing to do with air pressure. nothing to do with vacuum. I can lift at high rpm and have a 12:1 afr, 13:1 afr, or 17: afr, it all depends on how much air is entering the engine in relation to the amount of fuel I have set to be injected.

afr is air-to-fuel ratio. at a stoichiometric blend, there will be about 14.6 units of air (by mass) per 1 unit of fuel (also by mass). doesn't matter the air pressure. an engine running at sea level at 14.6 afr will produce the same amount of power per unit of fuel burned if you move it to pikes peak where you have about 60% of the oxygen density. it will produce less power due to less oxygen available, therefore less fuel being burned, but you would still have a stoich mix of 14.6:1 afr. if you added fuel and lowered the afr to a lesser number to match the atmospheric pressure value, you would be running quite rich.

hopefully that helps.
, seen it happen on the dyno with carby cars and straight open looped ecu's ,very well said !!
Hubz ,is the 14 a closed/open lope ecu ?
Ps do you have a vid of you reving it out ?
PS I am not putting you down , simply asking a question

Last edited by maxumis; 09-20-2013 at 11:00 PM.
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post #23 of 47 Old 09-20-2013, 10:57 PM
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didn't knkow this was an arguement, but since this is the internet, i guess somebody will always be able to find one whether or not one is going on.
This is gathering facts. There are no arguments with the absolute.

moving on,

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and then there is a gaping flaw in your logic: 14.6 afr has nothing to do with air pressure. nothing to do with vacuum.
Sure it does. You sound like a 'more air' kind of guy, I'm the 'same air' kind of guy.

Take a tire pump. That has a leather gasket soaked in oil, looks like a cup when you bolt down the center. It rides in a long tube. There is a hole at the top. Call that the 14.7 hole. There's a hole at the bottom. Call that the compression or pressure side like an engine.

The question to you is: What is the air pressure each time you lift the rod from the bottom?

The next question is: What is the pressure on the other side, you stop at TDC? Man, if you do not see a constant 14.7 on both sides, you are lost with the very first step of FI theory. Can you say stoic? 1 atm? 1ATMO? No sensor is out of spec if the very first number is? ______ Fill in the blank?

Quote:
I can lift at high rpm and have a 12:1 afr, 13:1 afr, or 17: afr, it all depends on how much air is entering the engine in relation to the amount of fuel I have set to be injected.
See what you just said? Amount of fuel entering first is the displacer. We are sucking in 14.7 is the constant. Our ratio is now the AFR. How much of a bubble could get in fighting a liquid that is already there? 14.7 is still the number when closed. Upon fire is the AFRatio exposed. That's why you begin and end with the 760mmHG as your base number be it in open loop, a main sensor fails, the ECU begins to calc in a limp condition. This is the calc'd number all in a safe, won't harm the engine, 'we take measures.' Get it yet?

Quote:
afr is air-to-fuel ratio. at a stoichiometric blend, there will be about 14.6 units of air (by mass) per 1 unit of fuel (also by mass). doesn't matter the air pressure.
Now you got it. How did you get there? The theory is as if you took a solid(crude), turned it into a liquid(gasoline), and now in theory, turn it into a single oxygen base back to... "You cannot create or destroy matter," so it is still a gas of what it began as. You sure are not breathing stoic we close the garage door and watch you breath the 1ATMO w/eng running.


Quote:
an engine running at sea level at 14.6 afr will produce the same amount of power per unit of fuel burned if you move it to pikes peak where you have about 60% of the oxygen density. it will produce less power due to less oxygen available, therefore less fuel being burned, but you would still have a stoich mix of 14.6:1 afr. if you added fuel and lowered the afr to a lesser number to match the atmospheric pressure value, you would be running quite rich.

hopefully that helps.
What you are saying is an engine running at sea level will make this much HP with this much air. Bring it up to pikes peak, you still close at 1 atm.

So, are we on the same page yet? 14.7 is the number no matter watt. Show me in that bicycle pump another number besides 14.7 on both sides is the same as saying, show me a different number than 14.7 at BDC of that engine. Because whatever momentum you think is following and will keep pushing a higher number when that piston is now moving up, show me that other number.

Now, do we understand the 1ATMO vs. AFR? And do we fire off every single fire with an AFR meter pegged at 14.6 from idle to WOT... yes or no? Is my engine lying to you or are you watching a timing of rpm vs. who enters first [under what vacuum vs. sensor] that compensates all that detonation and vacuum advance curve is the ignition too that makes or breaks ratio?

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Last edited by hubz14; 09-20-2013 at 11:18 PM.
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post #24 of 47 Old 09-20-2013, 11:15 PM
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Hubz ,is the 14 a closed/open lope ecu ?
Ps do you have a vid of you reving it out ?
PS I am not putting you down , simply asking a question
Western 14's are open loop. Euro 14's are closed loop. My R is a western open loop. I have no vids with an AFR meter near the tach for proof of, no. The speedo goes past 90 in one turn, but I cut that out? I was more showing the AFR in limp and FULL modes.

Limp = Needle pins to 16.5 AFR and locks there under lift
FULL = No codes, no sensor down, this needle pins past 18 AFR, but hangs there so the idle can come down under closed throttle/low vacuum, triggering that input to the ECU, meaning, move back to idle.

There are no pigs used. What I did was 'guess WOT?' I turned the air screws out so the [air] entered, displacing the fuel sooner is that 14.7 closing. So this brought the AFR down to a cruising 15 AFR reading. Thus this test video with the camera aimed at the meter.

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post #25 of 47 Old 09-20-2013, 11:31 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by hubz14 View Post
Western 14's are open loop. Euro 14's are closed loop. My R is a western open loop. I have no vids with an AFR meter near the tach for proof of, no. The speedo goes past 90 in one turn, but I cut that out? I was more showing the AFR in limp and FULL modes.

Limp = Needle pins to 16.5 AFR and locks there under lift
FULL = No codes, no sensor down, this needle pins past 18 AFR, but hangs there so the idle can come down under closed throttle/low vacuum, triggering that input to the ECU, meaning, move back to idle.

There are no pigs used. What I did was 'guess WOT?' I turned the air screws out so the [air] entered, displacing the fuel sooner is that 14.7 closing. So this brought the AFR down to a cruising 15 AFR reading. Thus this test video with the camera aimed at the meter.
The thing is Hubz ,you were to on/off throttle to really get what is going on !
So the euro is closed loop ecu ?? and the western open loop ??
There is no real difference in the euro/western bikes other than the western bikes are a lot more restricted , perfect example is the 10r..where the US 10's closes the secondary flys and retard the timing at 9Krpm the euro models don't. Must be the California rules imo ?
PS just asking as I don't really know ?

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post #26 of 47 Old 09-20-2013, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
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Hubz , Does your bike run an 02 sensor standed ?
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post #27 of 47 Old 09-21-2013, 05:35 AM
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The thing with 02 and PAIR, it's emissions related. Almost needs to understand his bike. So I suggest he holds the PAIR actuator, feel it tick off at low rpm. But when there is a heavy load, that unit stops ticking. To me, that says I shut down and run in open loop, or in heavy load. I cannot keep up with [rpm] demand so I shut down or I'll break physically trying to catch up.

Watt I'm saying is... The ECU takes action under heavy vacuum. It changes map scheduling into the heavy loads. As if pulling a trailer up hill with the foot on the floor. If we saw the fuel ratio scale, 12 AFR is best torque 13 AFR is the better rich torque.

So for me to accept that a pulled trailer is going to run at stoic when it needs a rich torque, who is that that makes this kind of map in FI? The math is all about numbers and positions = How it fuels itself in all rpm parameters.

When the TPS fails, the bike goes into 'method.' This is known as the D-J or 'digital-jetronics that takes over the light loads. When the IAP sensor fails, this part of the fueling runs in a-N or takes over the heavy loads needed. This is known as the alpha-Numeric or the limp that runs in stoic.

So the calc runs around using 760mmHg as a number. This still reps out as the 1 atmosphere calc number. Whereas the 02 sends in analog (many signals) or it fails to send any signal, then the ECU 'takes safety measures to save the engine from damage' is to preset the fueling into a stoic/lambda setting in digital (using the one constant number only).

Sensors = Analog = Many numbers that smooth the system in a linear way.
Backup = Digital = Only one number is used to calc if many numbers are not showing input. This is now a jerky/twitchy feeling in limp mode. The ignition is what you are feeling as it safely modes from spark damage, feels twitchy, no longer in a linear/smooth throttle response. This is open loop and how it addresses sensors in a failed and running mode. When the 02 fails in FI, this same method is used. The abstract may say different, but it means the same.

Suz uses 'fail-safe' as a way of saying the bike is now coded in limp.
Kawi says 'backup' saying the same abstract as how FI modes into itself to keep running without sensors. That why you have a CEL in cars for 'check engine light' and a flashing FI at the dash on the Kawi bike.

I'm in the process of running an 02 sensor on a used 14R header... I'll have 4 header tubes being bunged for fuel tuning. I might run 2 AFR meters so I can see the pre and post [past the cat].

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post #28 of 47 Old 09-21-2013, 05:45 AM
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So under limp mode, the AFR on lift is 16.5 AFR
Under FULL, no codes present, lift runs past 18 AFR

See where limp runs safe rich under load?

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post #29 of 47 Old 09-21-2013, 07:28 AM
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I fully understand how fuel injection and digital injection work, but I think you (Hubz) are muddiying the waters.

The process really isn't rocket science, and I don't think anyone is disputing that the motor will momentarily lean out on lift and perhaps if experiencing a sensor failure and in a "limp" mode the overall fuel curve will be richer resulting in a slightly less lean out on lift.

Seems to me we have page of argument where there is no argument, I am positive you (Hubz) know your stuff inside and out, but your posts are absolutely cluttering my mind
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post #30 of 47 Old 09-21-2013, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by maxumis View Post
Thankyou guys /Almost-less/Engineerrol ... You guys are artists imo !!
Its very much appreciated ,its just amazing technology...
Without people like you I would still be blind !!.
Mantis, I'm trying to figure this stuff out. I'm still observing and taking guessing at it. For me to ask some unanswerable questions, I leave those to me. When guys like you and the list above are asked the penultimate question, I have to then question your abstract you get that Q wrong.

When I ask that specific Q I never get an answer. Kind of makes you wonder how much rocket science you think this is? I'm now looking at maxumis and wondering how blind into that abstract he needs to ask, and if it goes against the penultimate question I muddled your head wit

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