when using a fuel-kill quick shifter (dynojet) while running a dry shot of nos, would it be ok to keep spraying during the shift or would you want to let off? i've already figured out all of the wiring/relays needed to make it work perfect, i'm just wondering if it is even necessary :?

i think it really depends on the way you are spraying. if you are fogging the air box, during the shift of say 60ms, the air box isnt going to empty all of its nitrous. and will be getting lots if its on or off. if you had a spray bar and the solenoid mounted practically on it, it might not get nitrous during the shift. but that also leads to the question of does the fuel get cut off completely, or just enough to unload the trans? if its off completely, then nitrous mixed with only air is just cold air. no combustion takes place so no lean(hot) condition. if its just cut off some, it might be really lean if its getting dry nitrous, but does it matter for that fraction of a second anyway?
someone with a dyno needs to pipe in....

Prolly a stooopid question, but why wouldn't an ignition interrupt be better than a fuel interrupt??

My Dale Walker III solenoid shifter interrupts the ignition signal(s) for the brief split second needed to unload the cogs... It always seemed to me that that was a more accurate way to do it...

...Now, I understand that the world changes when you're spraying, and my ignorance knows no bounds, but... I was actually curious about this question...

BTW - I apologize for the hijack, but I figured you guys would have a good perspective on this... Thanks for any explanations!!

<<Hijack over>> :) :)

You do not need to let off the spray during shifts. The quickshifter is so fast that any lean condition with a wet system will only be for a fraction of a second, not nearly enough time to do any damage. Besides, as KZscott said, it kills the fuel, and Nitrous itself is NOT flamable.... no combustion takes place with a dry system.



GO200- The reason a fuel cutoff is more effiecient than an ignition cutoff is because there is no backfiring. This helps keep the valves safe.

Before the dynojet quickshifter, we used the Dale Walker shifters on all our racebikes.... now we use nothing but dynojet quickshifters. Although the DW shifter works well, it's a less efficient design.

Thanks!! I learned sumpin'!! :D :D

No problemo, Sir.

Agreed. I hold the button down during air shifts and no bang, smooth as silk on the 30 shot.

A.

I'm not an expert either but I am spraying the crap out of my 12.
I run an ignition cut out for the shifter. I dont think I would run a fuel cut out on a dry shot unless you cut NOS too. Any lean condition is a lean condition. I dare anyone to spray your bike with the engine not running and then start it.
I am going to cut NOS as well even though I am doing the ignition cut out.
At a 40 shot my pop was not bad, but now at near a 90 shot this thing freakin sounds like a bomb at every shift.
But you have to be spraying a direct port injection shot for a NOS cut out to work, if your fogging the airbox the cut out wont work, unless you kill NOS about 500rpm before your shift.
I run a 4 nozzle dry system

thats not the same tho. that would fill the air box with pure nitrous. when the motor is running but killed for shifting its still spinning and pretty much sucking the same amount of nitrous and air from the air box as it was right before the start of the shift, so no build up of nitrous.


maybe you have too much kill time? that can cause the bang to get worse... hope your valve springs hold out

Regardless of how you do it, fuel cut or ignition cut, the piston still moves and pumps in and out whatever is in the airbox. Only difference is that with one of these things cut off, there is NO combustion in the chamber.


I believe the reason you're experiencing a larger pop is because you are killing IGNITION and a 90 shot worth of FUEL is still being dumped into the cylinder.

Use a FUEL cut-off and you will not have the backfiring.


p.s.- The reason it's OK to hold down the nitrous during shifts and NOT OK to hold it down with the engine off is because when the engine is off, the airbox retains all the nitrous instead of it being constantly sucked out by the vacuum created by the engine.

I understand but I also know this, cutting fuel while still spraying is a no-no.
Two thing I wouldnt do, are fog a box and cut fuel for the shift on nitrous.
I come on all these boards and here it all the time " why did a melt a piston, why did I lose a valve, why did I lose a valve spring etc etc etc.
I'm not the one having problems.
I,d rather have a cylinder full of fuel and nitrous as upposed to just nitrous.
But hey what do I know.

The only thing the Nitrous will do is COOL the pistons and CHT during that insignificant fraction of a second.


Nitrous Oxide is a NON-FLAMABLE gas, Fuel is HIGHLY combustable. So what you're saying is that you'd rather dump a huge amount of HIGHLY combustable liquid into the engine instead of a huge amount of NON-FLAMABLE gas with an extreme cooling properties. Gotcha :roll:



Also, you are not fogging the airbox between shifts with the Nitrous still spraying. The engine doesn't stop spinning during shifts, it's still drawing in air, especially during WOT shifts.


p.s.- You ARE the one having problems if your bike sounds like a bomb during shifts. Get a fuel cut-off type quickshifter (dynojet makes a nice one) and watch this problem go away. See... fuel can still IGNITE on its way out of the engine, causing backfiring........ Nitrous ALONE can not.

Don't you find it odd how you increased the nitrous and fuel and then the backfiring got even worse?


Just trying to help you out bro....

Everytime you shift with fuel cut out, your starting your bike with a full intake charge of nitrous and no fuel. Everytime it refires it,s lean. In my opinion. I know guys that do it, but not with big shots. I dont know enough to really say but I know I wont be doing it.
I know just an air box fog is dangerous.
An air box fog will spike lean everytime you chop the throttle. Did you know that ?
Go ahead and try anything over 70 hp on a air box fog.
If your playing with little ass 40 shots or less it probably doesnt matter.
The popping from an ignition cut out hurts absolutely nothing, that pop is from fuel and nos in the exhaust.
I would think the best way to do it would be to cut fuel and NOS at the same time but you cant do that with a fogger system.

What you're saying makes absolutely no sense.


There is no fogging of the airbox during shifts. The engine is STILL drawing air during shifts, it's just not igniting. The valves are still opening and the charge in the airbox is still going into the engine....


Then this crazy thing happens.... the exhaust valves open up and the nitrous that went into the airbox, through the head, into the cylinder.... is now pushed out into the exhaust and out the canister.

No combustion ever takes place because there's no fuel to burn... the nitrous flows out of the bike along with the air that was never used. Now, when you dump a ton of fuel into the exhaust with nitrous to help it ignite, you have backfiring and that's what you're experiencing.

No lean condition ever occurs..... USE A DATALOGGER TO RECORD REALTIME A/F AND YOU WILL SEE THIS FOR YOURSELF.


Oh, and YES it does matter with "little ass 40 shots".... backfiring can occur even on NATURALLY ASPIRATED bikes using ignition kill type shifters. You yourself said...

"At a 40 shot my pop was not bad, but now at near a 90 shot this thing freakin sounds like a bomb at every shift"

Any kind of backfiring is bad for the valves and should not be occuring during shifts on a well tuned and properly set-up bike.


Listen, I know you "think" you know how all this works, but you've got a lot to learn about nitrous and engines. From the way you describe your own bike, it sounds like you're the one who needs to be taking advice instead of giving it. There are a lot of average joes out there who know very little and will read what you're posting and assume you know what you're talking about. This misinformation is the kind of thing that leads people in the wrong direction and can potentially hurt their bikes in the process.


Sorry if this comes across as rude but we try to keep the information shared on these forums as accurate as possible and you just don't seem to "get" what we're all trying to explain to you.

ummm, with quick shifters the throttle is kept wide open. therefore no fogging...

phantom is correct. nitrous alone will do nothing when compressed and sparked. all the "unused" nitrous will just get flushed out of the engine by the time the fuel comes back on. its not like it magically stores it in anticipation of more fuel. it just harmlessly passes through.

thanks for your input phantom. you clearly answered my question.

No problem buddy, glad to help.


Quite a few guys here have run a very similar set-up to yours with a LOT of success. You may want to get with Shiphteey (Ali), he's currently the fastest guy around with your type of set-up on a ZX-12R.

Just don't tell him you're on a B-Model .... he'll get jealous. 8)

copied and pasted. link below

Finally, if your vehicle is equipped with the type of rev limiter that shuts off fuel at redline, it's a great idea to eliminate that system and go with an ignition-cut limiter. While it's a bad idea to hit any sort of limiter while spraying nitrous, it's especially bad to cut off part of the fuel flow (which is exactly what happens when the PCM intervenes during the operation of a wet-type system).

The above features can be incorporated via discrete modules, or an all-in-one ignition box - such as the Mallory HyFire VI shown above - can be used. Some vehicles will also benefit from the hotter spark that is provided by an aftermarket box, although modern ignition systems are indeed difficult to improve upon.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/16/d...oxide-part-ii/

[img][/img][img][/img]




Your crazy if you dont think you'll go lean when you stop fuel flow, absolutley crazy. Phantom your the one that thinks you know what your doing. I want to see you tell the turbo guys to interupt fuel for a shift.

The injectors spray in the intake tract where fuel is atomized. fuel interuption isnt as much as an engine kill as ignition kill is, its enough to unload trans for the shift. Things are happening really fast at 10,000 rpm you will still suck some fuel and a lot of nos at the shift and the return of of fuel also, this point is happening in milli seconds, and creates lean spikes. Is it enough for engine damge ? I dont know, you say no I say why chance it.

The next problem is the air box fog. Most people activate nitrous with a WOT switch of some sort and increase fuel in the 100% grid of the map, heres where another problem occurs. When you chop the throttle you come out of your 100% grid and get into your 80-60-40 etc. grids of your map, well your not adding the fuel neede for NOS and your air box is fully charged with the NOS . Here is where another lean condition occurs and this area will definately hurt your motor.

we're talking dry shot here buddy. of course it would be lean when using a wet. you'd only be running off the supplemental fuel. but last i heard you were running dry. 4 nozzles to be precise. different rules apply

Uggghhhhh...... here we go again. Get your pencil and paper ready...


1. When using any type of quickshifter, you are constantly at 100% throttle. You never let off the throttle. Period. Please, Please, PLEASE stop thinking the airbox is fogging up with nitrous. It's being sucked into the engine regardless of spark or fuel being thrown into the cylinder. Engines don't stop, only the load on the tranny is effected, allowing you to engage the next gear. The fuel comes back online in milliseconds.... but the nitrous that was sprayed into the airbox during the "cut-off" is long gone and out of the engine by then. There can not be a lean condition without a combustion in the cylinder... and with no fuel, there can not be a combustion. What part of this is written in Chinese? lol

2. The article you Copy/Pasted describes a REV LIMITER CUT-OFF where the fuel interupt is constant. The quickshifter fuel cut-off is a single blip in the fuel delievery and that's it. You may want to get on the same page as everyone else.

We're discussing quickshifters, not rev limiters.


3. We've raced and tuned Turbo bikes at the track. Our race team set 3 ECTA Land Speed Records at Maxton ranging from 230-237mph on a RCC Ultra Kit Turbo Hayabusa ridden by Sal Spatafora back in 07. Can you guess what type of quickshifter we used?

It doesn't matter if it's compressed air such as with a turbo or oxygen-dense gas such as Nitrous-Oxide..... no fuel, no combustion. Again, what part of this is written in Chinese?

4. I don't claim to know everything, but I have been racing for quite a few years now and have been involved with building/tuning SEVERAL record-setting bikes. I'd like to think I've learned a thing or two by working and racing with and against some of the best people in the business.




Are we done here yet? :roll:

Phantom I am talking about 2 seperate issues, one, fuel cut out for shifting which you say is OK and I say why chance it. Well just leave it at that.
Next is a dry shot via air box fog.
In a race when you let off the throttle at the finish line your bike goes lean because you come out of your 100% map and theres still NOS in the air box.
Understand ?

.

.

You guys do what you want, I have explained it.
Most people use WOT switches for activation, I already said this.
Let off the throttle the bike goes lean.
as far as fuel cut out, you decide.

Sigh........
and I'm the one that doesnt know what he's talking about.

ummm, yeah, using a window switch is just like using a WOT switch. only its electronic, not manual. actual activation done by a handlebar mounted button.

having only a WOT switch for activation is not only retarded, its dangerous. my freind nearly crashed his ZX-12R cuz his kids messed with it. they activated his arming switch (rocker switch: dee dee dee) without his knowledge and when he romped on it in first gear to wheelie, he hit the WOT switch, nos kicked in, and he almost looped it.

the smartest and safest way is to have a TPS based window switch (or equally interchangable WOT switch) AND a handlebar switch. that way it can be shut off before closing the throttle, and will need an intentional input from the user so there is no accidental activation.


PS i have a 200 gallon airbox and i'm spraying such a massive shot that even asparating 58 gallons a second, it still fogs up withing the 0.064 seconds that the enging is killed. that is why i am so worried about going lean. because in that 0.064 seconds of kill time, when there is no fuel being added, satan himself comes in and jerks off on my pistons causing them to superheat (within 0.064 seconds) and melt.

chingy chong ching chong <- part written in chinese

.

damn... no popcorn button? this ones getting good

.

phantom you dont even spray and you think you know what your talking about, when you go as fast as me, spray as much as I then you can tell me something. You dont know what your talking about. I spray 90-100 hp on a stock motor and youve said many times a stock 12 cant handle over 200 hp, I am already at 247 and still going. You cant spray more than 40 because you dont know what your doing, that doesnt mean I cant.
You spew crap, you know nothing about, all you do is rewrite what someone else said on another message board. The most exp. you have is with a 40 shot on a fogger system.
Whats with this we $hit, YOU havent done $hit ! Quit hanging on Sals shirt tails. He's the one thats done anything, not you.

Idiot wants to tell me how tp spray, Pffffft.
When your doing a 100 in 3 seconds shifting gears damn near every second you dont push a button to spray. MORON.
I especially laughed at your gallons of air calculation,,, buwhahahah.
Air is measuered in CFM dufus, and you forgot your calculations were off by half. think about rocket scientist.
Noobie huh ? I was racing motorcycles when you were nothing more than a stain in your daddy's underwear.
Go away kid your bothering me.

I'm not even going to waste my time replying to all that garbage, pointing out all the inefficiencies and flaws in your set-up would only benefit you. I just want to know one thing...

How fast have YOU gone on YOUR bike at a sanctioned event on certified lights?




Thanks.

Better yet.... since you're so fast...



Come out to Maxton in October.


$1,000 if you run faster than me. Deal?






............... Talk is cheap.

No I havent done the mile thing but it sounds fun. My racing is done in the 1/4. Wont make maxton but thiking about doing the Texas Mile.

i just wanted to point out that running NA when you let off the throttle, it goes lean, like 20:1 AFR. I can show you the log files from the track if you want. its not just a nitrous thing, its normal.

Did you get the motor back together yet Mario?

Onebad, what is the fastest you've ever had your 12, just curious. Verifiably, I mean.

A.

Sorry to hear you blew it up on the spray, how's the rebuild going?

Phantom, as a moderator and trying to be FAIR to all parties here, I have
to say your posts where you type garbage to insult other people posting do no good.

So I'm going to delete them as they offer nothing positive.

Everyone has made good points and there is no perfect answer.

The whole point of a forum is to SHARE thoughts and ideas and for everyone
to benefit and learn. If you find it so hard to share in a nice way, don't
post in the thread, or just ignore the post.

This isn't aimed only at you, but for ALL people posting on the forum... I left a lot of
other stuff that's ugly, but I'm hoping a simple "reset" will get you guys to talk
without being assholes to each other... it serves no purpose, only hard feelings.

Umkay, that's all fine and good..... but where did you see garbage and insults? If I'm not mistaken.... all the posts you "deleted" contained this:


lakndfoasgjpaoindpoajsndvfa;osjdnvgfa;skdna;sdknfa ;skldnf;alskdnfa;lsknd
as;dlkjans;diknas;lcknfva;sdknvfas;ldkfa
asdlkasndlvkjansldvknas;ldk;lsdnfva;lskdnfvas;lkdn v;alsknva;lsd


And I did so because it contained helpful information that I felt was unappreciated. Here's an example of some of that helpful information I replaced with alskdnfaosijfoasnfqaf :


Oddly enough, his engine blew up during nitrous use on the rev limiter because the bike wouldn't change gears. This is the exact reason why you don't use a WOT switch as the activation without the use of a window switch.


Anyway, it's WAAAAAAY cool how you delete my "askjdnfalskdjfalksjdfalskj" posts yet you leave up this one from him...

Come on dude, let's take the higher ground here... I didn't feel it was
right to delete a counter point, even though I DIDN'T like it...

And YES, it was a rude post by him...

But mocking someone by typing garbage SERVES no purpose...zero.

I can't make everything on here perfect... I'm just asking you to step up and
be the better man by keeping your cool.

And to you other guys, heads up... pretend we were all standing in a room,
drinking a beer, trying to shoot the shitt with other guys on how to do
something... We wouldn't talk to each other like that in person...

So come on...

And Phantom, I go outta my way to give you the benefit, just so it
DOESN'T look like I'm busting on ya... really, no shitt.
I have a lot of respect for what you do...

On another note, I was on Brocks website.... saw where Dave Owen died
at Maxton... sorry to hear that. Smackin down some huge numbers and
lost it... very sad... his son was there and asked them to continue for his dad.

In fairness to Phantom, I missed the insults from Onebadkawboy...

Ok, I'm not gonna sit here and sort through and delete he said/she said.
Because first I gotta go edit out the crap... then I gotta go through all
the places the original crap was quoted, and edit it all over again.
You guys don't want to be moderated... fine! Don't post rude and
insulting posts. You can argue all ya want... make your points...!!!
But can't you guys do it with some class????

Just try to act like some friggin grownups, or we'll just move the
whole thread to trash...

Now I see why Phantom posted some shitback... enough ok?

Maybe you should just try moderating less if its too overwhelming for you.

Feel free to PM Lash if YOU'D like to help support or work on the board....

Then again, if everyone would simply show some respect to other members, we wouldn't
need to do any moderating...

You read too much into what I wrote. Maybe try moderating LESS...would it be a big deal to let 2 people let their points come out on a public forum? Why do you feel the need to prematurely start deleting posts?

Check your PMs... your posts here have nothing to do with this thread
of spraying NOS.

People can argue their point all they want... but when it resorts to calling
each other names, being plain rude, etc, they should take it to PMs...

TX is coming up soon, you going? They have a headwind there, but since its only a one way run you may hear that it doesn't really count. Its harder to go 200 out there than at Maxton or Bonneville, not that I know what its like to go over 200 mph with proof or anything...I probably just make that sorta stuff up for attention.

A.

ok guys, if anyone wants to get this thread back on topic, feel free.
There's a lot of good/interesting info here, despite the bickering, and I'd rather not have to close the thread.
Debating/arguing methods of doing something is fine with me, but flaming just for the sake of flaming just isn't necessary.
Anyone is welcome to contact me via PM if further explanation is needed.
Thanks for understanding,
Connman

well im going to setup fuel and coil kill on my bike next yr. im using the Schnitz PPI coil kill now, and ill be using that to activate a dynojet quickshifter too. so if there is any loading up on fuel, its only going to be from the wet kit(60-80 hp worth of fuel and nitrous) and there wont be the 180 hp or so worth of fuel from the injection system. shouldnt be any backfiring to speak of

scott I am still here
my stuff has been siting at a place I am not going to mention. 4 months i believe. I made it over there the other day and not a single thing was done to my motor. I picked all my stuff up and brought it home. I need help putting it together. I might go with another guy in town who is very reputable, or maybe if I can get someone to help put it togehter I would do it here.
This is what I have got sitting on my bench.
1287 piston kit and block
Web cams
stainless exhaust valves
adjustable cam sprockets
heavy valve springs
heavy duty studs
stem seals and reatainers
R&D tranny with low first gear.
complete gasket set.
new bearings
Head needs to be asembled with a vale job, I am now debating if I should go ahead with port work, also thinking of stroking it.


shiptey when you ask how fast I have been, well I dont run the mile, or should I say havent yet. How qick have I been would be better, last time out on stock motor spraying it pulled a 164 mph in the 1/4 with an 8.83

The guy with the big rod bolts?
if you hang out enough at bikeland you can put it together yourself. I built my 1287 and went 161 on it in the 1/4(no mechanical training ever) huge wheelie and only ran 9.04 though :(
I have a pretty good thread on bikeland that basically goes from me not knowing much about a motor to setting bearing clearances, timing cams (adjustable sprockets), checking PTV, quench, porting a head ect. I just asked the right questions and dove in head first. search "pulling motor for first time for trans fix" if you want to go thru it.

rod bolts arent going to work, I bought stock ones. But ya