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An interesting read on Oil...

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Old 03-03-2012, 09:24 AM   #1
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An interesting read on Oil...

Stumbled across this page, one of many really, researching the possibility of higher viscosity oil causing the valve cover gasket leak on my bike....while it is possible, this also lends very much merit to using the 0w50 oils in motorcycle engines.

Some probably already knew this stuff, oil theory and all, but some "do it yourself" guys may not understand how oil works, and this explains it rather well.

Understand Motorcycle Oil @ MotorCycleAnchor.COM

I think I'll be running 10w40 in my 12R this season, see if that don't make a difference. I can't believe that valve cover can blow out after less than 6k. on it. I also noticed that the past 2 seasons I've ran 20w50 blended in there, and the bike runs noticeably hotter around town. The first season I had the bike, I ran 10w40 blended in it, and it rarely went past 10 o'clock on the dial so....

Interesting stuff indeed.


Last edited by my12r; 03-03-2012 at 09:35 AM.
   
 
Old 03-03-2012, 11:01 AM   #2
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.


Very interesting read.

Thanx for sharing.


Dave.


.
   
 
Old 03-03-2012, 01:20 PM   #3
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my12r,

There is a problem. The very first thing is... It is not my problem. The next thing is, I used 30 year old oil and mixed it with so many different weights, and other syn oils. I do not have leaks. Most are caused by shrinkage, ill fitting the first time, or a design flaw, needing more milli thick so as to crush more seal to it.

An article like you brought in, I can dispute it. I can show you a book that has a high/low compression value, show you were I wound up with 4 compressions vs. book spec. Book has a low/high value. Do not break out of either side or a rebuild is needed.

The fallacy is, how could I use a low SAE letter oil, sitting for so long, with other weight oils as the 50%, we finish off with what oil is around? The min is 145 psi. The max is 280 psi at the max. If I beat my bike. If I have over 20K on the engine, how did 220 psi get away with all that, 'needs this oil or else' kind of scenario?

Is your leg being pulled?
   
 
Old 03-03-2012, 01:44 PM   #4
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Well,

Something is causing the leak. Whether it's oil pressure, it's debatable. I'm not 100% convinced that's what caused it myself. I did notice the temp being higher using the 20w50. I know a thicker oil will flow slower. This makes me wonder, even tho the viscosity is not vastly different at temp, if this ain't part of the temp issue, as well as a raise in oil pressure causing the gasket to leak. Thinner oil flows faster. Faster flow equals faster removal of heat....at least in an air cooled app...thinner oil also reduces oil pressure....reduced oil pressure equals less pressure on seals.

Are you saying look at compression leaks in under the cover there? Bad valve seats or something?

I'm kinda in a way grabbing at straws. I just can't accept that "it just does that" as a decent explanation for the issue. I cleaned the surfaces very well before putting it back. I even went so far as to add a VERY small bead of Ultra Copper all the way around the cover.

I'm going to check the cover bolts to see if maybe they just didn't wiggle loose, as I didn't have a in lbs torque wrench when I put it back together last time...(it broke!!...last time I buy cheap tools). I can't see spending that kind of money every 4,000 miles or so to replace that thing. It's supposed to be reusable.

I dunno. I gots a bit of pokin around to do.

As for your oil description...I've seen you talk about that before, and having worked with oil for a few years, I understand and agree. Why else would Valvoline be touting "NexGen" on folks..
   
 
Old 03-03-2012, 01:54 PM   #5
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I just posted that article for folks to get an idea on how oil works.

I know that the thicker oil will also rob power, due to drag. Conventional wisdom also tells me that thicker oil reduces friction, which equals less heat. But thicker oil could also prevent it from reaching where it needs to be adequately too...

Not that there is a massive difference between 10w40 and 20w50 in the grand scheme...I'm going to try the other end of the spectrum and see if maybe I can't at least get a cooler temp.
   
 
Old 03-03-2012, 06:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Well,

Something is causing the leak.
It is OLD!

Quote:
Whether it's oil pressure, it's debatable.
It has been reused! They shrink! Lots of Heat cycled key fobbing you will go. No longer supple. Has no memory to push up against metal.

Quote:
I'm not 100% convinced that's what caused it myself.
I can 't be 100% anything. You never touched it, oil should leak each time you change any engine if you take that line. I'm going to say this is 100% not the oil if everyone changes oils, they should leak is your theory.

Quote:
I did notice the temp being higher using the 20w50.
Thick retains heat.

Quote:
I know a thicker oil will flow slower.
Molasses and water flow different. Good so far.

Quote:
This makes me wonder, even tho the viscosity is not vastly different at temp, if this ain't part of the temp issue, as well as a raise in oil pressure causing the gasket to leak.
Thick oil is friction thru a pump blade. So, I'm going to agree with friction and heat with a change of molasses from water = Friction moving over [down] a surface.

Quote:
Thinner oil flows faster. Faster flow equals faster removal of heat.
If I have an ice cube, fly it across your neck on a hot day, nahow much heat cooled off, if I went real slow and melted that ice down the back of your neck? Fast does not have time to capture the heat, take it away.

Quote:
...reduced oil pressure equals less pressure on seals.
Say what? There is no air pressure on a seal from oil pressure?!?! There is crankcase pressure, you over fill the crankcase, then there is more pressure at the seal.

Quote:
Are you saying look at compression leaks in under the cover there? Bad valve seats or something?
There are no compression leaks at a seal(s) or all the seals would be under pressure, right? No. There are no 'valve seats' backed up inside the crankcase to cause extra pressure.

Quote:
I'm kinda in a way grabbing at straws.
I'm scratching my head. Wait a minute. I said I was going to keep an eye on you.

Quote:
I just can't accept that "it just does that" as a decent explanation for the issue. I cleaned the surfaces very well before putting it back.
It says, I forgot the troth that the rubber sits in? It is hydraulic'ing out under the U of the grove is my 50% guess I guess? So, you may have covered one side of the rubber, but that shrink that is in that tray or troth at that cover? It may explain it there? Not over, meaning, but under?

Quote:
I'm going to check the cover bolts to see if maybe they just didn't wiggle loose, as I didn't have a in lbs torque wrench when I put it back together last time...(it broke!!...last time I buy cheap tools).
Sears has some quality stuff. Well, if it is from china... WALK! Help your own economy; buy USA! And you went HA squidding you will go, bye tearing out the hole. High ho the dairy ho, Ha hunting we will go! That says skiwid all over you, r12. First thing guy joe-A does is more thread tear! I wish I had stock in heil coil. For every penny, I would wonder who returned the best... You catching my drift yet?

Quote:
I can't see spending that kind of money every 4,000 miles or so to replace that thing. It's supposed to be reusable.
Go to any 'general information' in a manual. It says, "Replace when servicing with new gaskets and/or o-rings. Shrinkage may occur. Clean surfaces and apply sealer to areas. See, top end section for sealer placement." I think you either:

1. Heard a problem that you currently have is "reuse,"; 'reuse, you lose'!
2. You did not follow procedure in the manual(s), you followed the herd.
3. You are cheap? I doubt it. You are green like a key whack key sack of knowledge you are gaining, not me. I quote the shop man you will; look stew PIT, not me.

Quote:
As for your oil description...I've seen you talk about that before, and having worked with oil for a few years, I understand and agree. Why else would Valvoline be touting "NexGen" on folks..
Because, no WON list INN's To Turtle.

I am Dev Resinep, and I endorse DIS message... I can see you guys coming for miles... Funny, it is not my fault I bring the message in a bottle {FSM].

It's a game. It's sport. It is like we all show up at the race. Your bike against mine. Your tune against mine. I'm going to run my pit my way... You guys have at it your way.

These are WEAR-HA boys... Like AMA toys and girls!
dobeck performance - Page 3 - Wrist Twisters
   
 
Old 03-03-2012, 06:32 PM   #7
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Quote:
But thicker oil could also prevent it from reaching where it needs to be adequately too...
Disagree. The oil thins out eventually, yes? No oil pressure [or light] says it didn't get there, yes? Drop the drain plug on a full crankcase of straight 50w. I was dropping oil every practice was the first thing I did when I came in every race/practice. Pulling filter pleat open to check for trouble too. Blew an engine with too many hours on the rods; ran out of gas; crashed some. Other than those variables, I never had an engine blow due to running straight 50w.

   
 
Old 03-03-2012, 06:41 PM   #8
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Na..this gasket was pit in 2 summers ago. It wasn't a reuse...

I filled the well in the cover with Ultra Copper. Cleaned the shit outta everything with cleaner before reassembly. It was leak free until just before I parked it last year, then it started leaking out of the front corner again.

I didn't "torque" it down. I snugged it. Been doing this a while...kinda know when tight is tight enough. Especially in aluminum. I may not have gotten them tight enough tho...hence the thought that it may have loosened up a bit.

Been a while since a post got dissected...

As for it being OLD....well...the gasket is NEW...

Forgetting the tough...the trough is in the cover. The head is a flat surface. all cleaned very well, and that trough filled with Ultra Copper.

   
 
Old 03-03-2012, 06:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Disagree. The oil thins out eventually, yes? No oil pressure [or light] says it didn't get there, yes? Drop the drain plug on a full crankcase of straight 50w. I was dropping oil every practice was the first thing I did when I came in every race/practice. Pulling filter pleat open to check for trouble too. Blew an engine with too many hours on the rods; ran out of gas; crashed some. Other than those variables, I never had an engine blow due to running straight 50w.

I didn't mean that it don't completely get there....it just gets there a bit slower. I'm aware it thins out...

The thinner oil would just get there a fraction of a second faster...thinner oil pumps faster.
   
 
Old 03-03-2012, 06:46 PM   #10
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Hey my12 you talking to yourself again?? Oh ya I forgot about the ignore feature. Gotta love it.
   
 
Old 03-03-2012, 06:48 PM   #11
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Old 03-10-2012, 03:41 PM   #12
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Well...I know this much....she runs a helluva lot better with 10w40 vs 20w50...now she stands up on a hard accel...like she should...

Took her out today and gave it hell...Ran better than the day I parked it! I forgot I had put some 110 octane in it before i parked it. Musta chewed away at the injector gum....

That valve ticking I heard last year is gone as well....and she cools better...course, it's only a 65 degree day, but she cycled the fan quite often...

Last edited by my12r; 03-15-2012 at 07:11 PM.
   
 
Old 03-14-2012, 11:30 AM   #13
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I think everybody that owns a bike should really understand more about weight and viscosity of oil.

If you really want to dig into the subject, note that many modern high performance and turbocharged motors dicate 0W30 or 0W40.

Now if we get to brass tacks, the bearings on a turbo are arguably the single most fragile part of a modern high performance motor. Oil breakdown is catastrophic to a turbo. So if thicker is better... Not.

I look at 20W50 as old school. I would never, ever run it in any motorcycle I own or car for that matter.

As for your leaking valve cover gasket, I have one word for you: YamaBond.

Its been around forever but I have yet to find a better sealant. Clean all surfaces with denatured alcohol, apply to both surfaces as directed and you will not have any leaks.

This holds true on the 12 for the cam end plugs also.

Most of the valve cover leaks I have seen on 12's (and many other bikes for that matter) are due to over-torqueing the cover bolts OR not tightening them down in sequence. The sequence is important because its easy to seat the cover down on one side and then lose that on the other side. The 12 cover seems to be especially unforgiving of that.
   
 
Old 03-14-2012, 05:41 PM   #14
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Yeah, I was thinkin about grabbin up some 0w40 this season, but Kawi recommends no lower than 10w40....I'm of the school now that 20w50 is for old motorcycle engines. This is why:

All that valve noise I heard last year....Gone. Motor makes absolutely no ticks, pings, grindings...nothing. Only noise is the tailpipe. Last year, it had tons of valve noise and mysterious knock when it got hot at idle that went away both when revved and cooled down.....All the unusual noises from the motor, aside from the A1 clutch noise, is completely gone (and this is even a little better).

The bike feels (seat of the pants) like it has more power even. I'm not sure if it's the lighter oil, lighter me or a combination thereof (lost 65lbs over the winter)...but that damn thing comes up all the time when you get on it....time to look into a damper...topic for another discussion.

I don't see as much of the leak out of the cover, as others say, in the higher revvs is when it's really noticeable on the plastics...I ain't had to clean it off in the last 400 miles or so I've put on in the last 3 rides...before it was every stop I needed to wipe the oil off.

I've noticed, that while the bike is still hitting 11 o'clock (was 73 degrees today) on the temp needle in traffic, it's cooling off as it used to and don't climb over to the red like last summer. I'm sure my cooling system could use a redo, and I'll be running a bit more Water Wetter this year to help combat this, but I suspect the radiator is just in need of a good cleaning. Some of the fins are pretty beat up, and when I bought it it had damn near straight AF in there...I'll worry bout that later.

Overall, I'm quite impressed with the difference in the bike going from the 20w50 blended syn to 10w40 blended syn....Maybe it's just me, but there's something to this I'm thinkin....This is the only mechanical change from last year....lighter oil.



I have heard of that Yamabond myself, and may try it should I tackle that damn cover again. When I put it in, I will admit I didn't follow the torque sequence, as I had no torque wrench for In lbs and was in a hurry. Seems that's probably why it's leaking...good call.

   
 
Old 03-14-2012, 06:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
I look at 20W50 as old school. I would never, ever run it in any motorcycle I own or car for that matter.
Wow I didnt even know they still made 20W50. I have not seen that wt around in a long time. I know the newer no tubo cars use a 5w20. wonder how long before we are having to use this type of wt in new bikes??
   
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